On compensation

I’ve heard about the Baltimore Shadchan incentive program ($2,500 to the shadchan of a consummated shidduch involving a Baltimore area girl), and now, apparently, Queens has one too. I understand that it’s necessary in Baltimore, where girls just don’t get that much exposure, but you would think that Queens is a large enough area for natural networking to be done.

I’m really not trying to sound negative here. I understand that making a shidduch is hard work and the shadchan should most certainly be compensated for his/her efforts; in fact, I’m pretty sure it’s a Halacha (not sure where though). But if you read that Queens sight and all the nitty-gritty rules, I don’t know, it just seems to take all the “romance” out of dating. Looking at the bottom rule, if I were a betting man, I would bet that there have been quite a few Beis Dinim convened to determine who gets paid on a Shidduch. That just seems wrong. Again, I’m not saying people don’t need that incentive; it just leaves me with a bad feeling after reading all those rules.

Don’t worry; I’ll have a more fun post up next.

Wow

Stop reading Shidduch books and read this.

Now.

If you have time, read the whole thing. It might take a while.

I'm not so sure that single people should be reading this, though. Not because it is inappropriate, but because it really makes you want to get a girlfriend/boyfriend NOW just to see if that level of emotion and feeling are even possible. If I fall in love with my (future) wife like Robert Avrech has been in love with his for over 27 years, I will be a lucky man.

I just don't know how one can achieve that level from Shidduch dating people. Assuming such a level exists and he's not just romanticizing the whole story. Even if he is romanticizing a little, it's still beautiful. That’s why I feel strongly about the whole “modern orthodox” way of building a relationship over time versus getting engaged after a week. That will obviously be a longer discussion for a different time.

But just quickly:

It’s not really fair of me to make this into an MO vs. Yeshivish issue; it’s not. You can be Yeshivish and still take time to build a relationship with a girl. And I have no problem (not that anyone cares) with couples getting engaged very quickly if things make sense. But you will not convince me that a couple that has known each other for a few weeks (plus a short engagement) will walk down to the Chupa with the same feelings and emotions than a couple that walks down after being through more with each other, if nothing else than time. Relationships take time to build. Obviously for Frum people, most of the building occurs after marriage, but I feel there should be a significant foundation on which to build.

Maybe we’ll continue this over the weekend.

Now go read Robert Avrech.

Now.

Yes, I'm still around

I know I haven't posted in a while, but I still have some thoughts to share.

Not right now, though. Hopefully over the long weekend (I can't write tomorrow as I have a wedding to go to - you see, people actually DO get married!)

For now, I want to leave you with a good article from Aish.com.

Happy Chanuka to all.

Be back soon.

Look what I can do Ma

I've finally learned how to create links.
I know, it's not that difficult, so sue me.

Anyway, I want to use this new found skill to point you all towards a post in the Kallah magazine blog about the SC.

I agree with her take much more than the post on Cross-Currents.

Be back later with more commentary.

Keep on keepin on

I guess I never did continue the discussion over the weekend - blame it on laundry.

I've been scouring the blogging world for a current Frum dating blog written by a single mid-20's guy, which is better than mine. I haven't found it.

Therefore, I feel I do serve a purpose and will continue writing.
(I don't mean to sound overly confident or anything - I couldn't find ANY other current Frum dating blog written by a single mid-20's guy.)

There does seem to be a few from 2004-5, when I believe the J-blogosphere really took off. Ahh well, better late than never.

So, back to this leap of faith thing.
Obviously, I haven't taken it yet, but on a personal level, I would like to think I’d be ready when the opportunity presents itself. The fact of the matter is there are a whole bunch of guys and girls (http://mydatewascrazy.blogspot.com/2006/12/lead-me-on.html) who are dating just because they don't want to "fall behind."
While I think that that is a justifiable way of thinking, more has to be done so as to avoid leading on the other party. (Girls, you'd be surprised how many guys would agree to go out with you even if you said you were just getting started Shidduch dating and were "practicing" - whether this is Halachically acceptable is a different discussion.)

I'm not so sure I believe in that parenthetical statement, but I'll leave it in there anyway.

On the other hand, maybe if a Frum 23 year old girl wasn't considered "over-the-hill", there would be less of a problem.

Does anyone really believe that a 19 year old girl who has just returned from an intense year of Seminary, having been out of her parent's house for a year and with a whole bunch of ideas in her brain that have to be sorted out, is ready for marriage?

This may sound cruel, but trust me; guys know how to fool girls. They know what a girl wants to hear right after she gets off the plane, and they know how to say it.
Now, I'm not saying that what was learned in Yeshiva/Seminary is just "flipping out" and the individual must force themselves to readjust to the "real world", but there should be some time allowed to process everything.

You can have the noblest intentions in the world, but someone still has to pay the electric bill.

Now this all is very dependant on what kind of relationship you’re looking for. Not to say which one is better (yet, at least), but a couple who get engaged after a week of “hotel-lobbying” will have a different relationship upon marriage than a couple who dated for a significantly longer period. I think part of the problem is that a lot of the more moderate returning Seminary girls get lumped into the “hotel-lobbying” crowd even though that may not be the best for them. If you’re Shomer, it’s not easy to date someone for a long time. But, if you decide that you’re ready to get engaged sooner than you would’ve expected based on your religious and social outlook, then you also have to be prepared to take a bigger leap and be satisfied with a different kind of initial relationship upon marriage than you were hoping for. I think that balance (or lack thereof) is quite possibly the root of the rest of the problems the Shidduch dating world is facing.

Ok, I think I’m even giving MYSELF a headache, so let’s leave it at that for now…

Quick shout out

Just wanted to drop a quick line, as I don’t know if I’ll be able to post again before Shabbos.

Continuing from last time, it’s my opinion that there is no one correct philosophy with regards to Frum shidduch dating. As with all things in life, everything should be dealt with in moderation. Just like it’s an extreme to get engaged after two “sit-ins” with her parents, a frum couple probably shouldn’t date for three years just to make sure EVERYTHING makes sense. Walking down that aisle will always be a leap of faith; the question just is, how big of a leap do you want to take?

I want to continue this discussion over the weekend, but for now let’s leave it open to (the here to fore non-existent) comments.

Thoughts on a slow Monday

Happy Monday to all.

Hope everyone did something interesting over the weekend.

For those who care, today’s been a real drag; one of those “is it Friday yet?” days.

Anyway, back to shidduch dating.

There are quite a few topics I want to get to in length, but for today, I’ll take the easy way out and comment on other peoples’ ideas.

First, that blogging friend of mine keeps churning them out. I believe we’ve already mentioned http://greatdateplaces.blogspot.com/, and on it he has a new post on the dating black hole that is the state of New Nersey. Now I happen to be a big fan of New Jersey in general ( I just can’t imagine driving in a state where there are signs that are actually helpful), but there really is not much to do there on a Frum Shidduch date. I actually think that Target or Ikea make good dating places if you happen to go out with a girl from NJ. Target, incidentally, is one of the coolest stores ever. You can literally buy a suit, mp3 player, toilet seat cover, and a box of cereal in ONE trip. How awesome is that?!

I think the point though is that the company you keep is more important than where you actually go. If two people are interested in each other, they really can have fun doing anything. You can have a great time with a date at a grocery store or a terrible time at Hershey Park (really, the grocery store can be a lot of fun). Now, I am not advocating doing generic things on a date, certainly not in the early stages of the courtship. A guy really should put some effort into finding an interesting place to take a date. The point is that if you can’t (eventually) have fun doing “ordinary” things with a date, then maybe he/she just isn’t for you.

And when I say ordinary, I don’t mean a hotel lobby. I think it just puts too much pressure on both sides to sit a total stranger down in a formal setting like a lobby and say, “talk.”
You should be doing SOMETHING. But then again, I AM Modern Orthodox ;-)

One could retort, “what about Starbucks, eh? That’s just talking?” (no, I’m not Canadian, I just like saying “eh?”). Well, at Starbucks, at least there’s interesting music in the background and a choice of drink has to be made. One could spin off into a whole conversation about the different types of coffee that are offered or choice of background music (which of course could lead to a much more in depth conversation about non-Jewish music in general). That’s better than a stiff hotel lobby in my opinion. To me, when the ONLY thing to do in a place is talk, the date just becomes too formal.

On another note, apparently I am so inspiring in my commentary on the SC that I already have my first “break-away.” The link is http://helpsolvethecrisis.blogspot.com/ if you haven’t already seen it in the comments section. I assume the author is a girl (master of the obvious, I am). It’s a shame that she already has a bad taste in her mouth about the whole Shidduch system. I certainly understand the opinion that it was better back in the day when people just met naturally. But, it should be known that there are still 50-year-old singles on the UWS who believe that the shidduch system is a bunch of baloney. I’m not sure that any particular system really is the answer; it may just be necessary to borrow from all types of Frum dating philosophies to get the right mix.

I’ll let that percolate for a while so we can have something to talk about next time.

A few links and Good Shabbos

Just wanted to drop a few links on you before Shabbos.

My friend who created the venerable blog mydatewascrazy.blogspot.com has created yet another masterful commentary on the dating world.

http://greatdateplaces.blogspot.com/

This one is very useful, as it has, well, a list of great date places.
Now girls, if your man takes you to one of these great spots, don't think of him as unoriginal; rather, be happy that he cares about you enough to do extensive research to find a dating place that he feels can adequately express his appreciation of you. Wow, that was a long sentence.

Also, on the aforementioned mydatewascrazy is a very interesting post, which must have surely been written by a girl -

http://mydatewascrazy.blogspot.com/2006/12/guys-101.html

Read it over there and maybe we'll discuss it over here next week.

Good luck to anyone who has a date over the weekend.

Good Shabbos to all.