Halacha VS Hashkafa Part II
I’ve reconsidered my position on Hashkafa vs. Halacha.
While I still think that a lot of Hashkafic debates are really Halachic issues, I no longer think it’s as simple as saying a husband and wife can respectfully disagree and move on.
The fact that there can be an argument whether TV EVEN IS a Halachic OR Hashkafic issue already signifies how deeply the two platforms are intertwined. Depending on where one falls on the Orthodoxy spectrum, a lot of “non-major” Jewish issues can be categorized as either Halachic or Hashkafic in nature. For some, every decision made in life is an issue of Daas Torah, for others, everyday matters are “lifestyle choices” and only major decisions are consulted on with a Rav. So, if you have a guy who considers TV as a lifestyle choice and a girl who considers it Assur L’Halacha, obviously there’s going to be a divide there, which is not easily overcome. I still think that mutual respect can overcome a significant number of issues, but I think the couple must at least be on the same wavelength. Maybe if a couple can get to the point of agreeing WHICH issues are Halachic and WHICH are Hashkafic, then they have something to work with.
Somewhat tangentially, I think this is probably the biggest defining factor between Yeshivish and MO. Yeshivish people (generally) think that almost all decisions in life are Halachic ones that would require consultation with a Rav (even whom to vote for in an election for some). MO, on the other hand, think that as long as one is going through life with the proper outlook, a Rav is not need for all decisions, just major ones where an answer is not readily found.
I think the “Daas Torah” conundrum is a separate issue from the above; one on which I’m not yet ready to theorize on.
Incidentally, I’m starting to think that before I go on a first date with a girl, I should just tell her to read my blog to know beforehand if she can put up with me or not ;-)
While I still think that a lot of Hashkafic debates are really Halachic issues, I no longer think it’s as simple as saying a husband and wife can respectfully disagree and move on.
The fact that there can be an argument whether TV EVEN IS a Halachic OR Hashkafic issue already signifies how deeply the two platforms are intertwined. Depending on where one falls on the Orthodoxy spectrum, a lot of “non-major” Jewish issues can be categorized as either Halachic or Hashkafic in nature. For some, every decision made in life is an issue of Daas Torah, for others, everyday matters are “lifestyle choices” and only major decisions are consulted on with a Rav. So, if you have a guy who considers TV as a lifestyle choice and a girl who considers it Assur L’Halacha, obviously there’s going to be a divide there, which is not easily overcome. I still think that mutual respect can overcome a significant number of issues, but I think the couple must at least be on the same wavelength. Maybe if a couple can get to the point of agreeing WHICH issues are Halachic and WHICH are Hashkafic, then they have something to work with.
Somewhat tangentially, I think this is probably the biggest defining factor between Yeshivish and MO. Yeshivish people (generally) think that almost all decisions in life are Halachic ones that would require consultation with a Rav (even whom to vote for in an election for some). MO, on the other hand, think that as long as one is going through life with the proper outlook, a Rav is not need for all decisions, just major ones where an answer is not readily found.
I think the “Daas Torah” conundrum is a separate issue from the above; one on which I’m not yet ready to theorize on.
Incidentally, I’m starting to think that before I go on a first date with a girl, I should just tell her to read my blog to know beforehand if she can put up with me or not ;-)
posted by MoDox Machmir Man at 5:34 PM
9 Comments:
I hope what I'm saying comes out clear to the reader. I'm not really a writer by nature so therefore things always end up sounding better in my head than they do on paper. I am trying, though. Comments anyone?
"Yeshivish people (generally) think that almost all decisions in life are Halachic ones that would require consultation with a Rav (even whom to vote for in an election for some). MO, on the other hand, think that as long as one is going through life with the proper outlook, a Rav is not need for all decisions, just major ones where an answer is not readily found."
personally i think youre on the right track but youre missing the big point..
i think the difference bw yeshivish, or the way yeshivish is supposed to be, people and MO is that yeshivish, as you said, ask a rav about everything- but not that they literally need to ask a rav before everything, but every choice in life to them IS part of a torah lifestyle and therefore has to be weighed next to the torah. MO on the other hand dont normally feel that way- there is torah, and there is life.they have the time that they learn, and then they have the time that they watch 24, go to the movies, whatever.. read gemara brachos 35b the part that begins "bo u're'ay shelo kadoros harishonim..."
and i think that will sum up what im saying..
its big time mussar so get ready.
I think you're right in that that's the way that MO currently acts, but that's not the way I think of MO as. I think that everything one does has to be with the understanding that you're a Jew living in G-d's world. And that in the end, all actions must be accounted for. Never the less, that doesn't mean that one can't watch 24, for example. I think it's very important to relax some times, and if one feels that there is an appropriate show that he can watch, then that's fine. The point I was trying to make was that while a Yeshivish person feels the NEED to ask a Rav about everything, an MO person might be more comfortable with leaving a lot of his decisions up to himself as long as they conform to the ideology he agrees with. That's probably not practically what happens, though; I will give you that.
As opposed to what you were saying above, I think that there can be both Yeshivish AND MO who can (try to)live there lives according to the Torah at all times - it just depends on whether they choose to be machmir in everything or not.
Maybe that's the problem - I think that MO can clearly fit into the above definition, but practically, a lot of people DO use MO as AN EXCUSE to be more lenient than is allowed at certain times.
I appreciate your Mussar, although I feel it is unfairly thrown at the whole MO world, when I think there are clearly two different types of “MO”, the one’s you described and the ones I did.
I don't know, maybe I need to redefine things.
this is why i hate labels.. they are never perfect and they only lead to trouble..
and just one more thing, even though i know this isnt a tv discussion, but you brought it up-
when people rationalize that its ok to watch things like 24 etc which they say are "appropriate"....... im not sure that they are being honest with themselves.
and i guess i dont exactly know what your definition of appropriate is...
do you think it is appropriate for a guy to watch a show that has women running around in miniskirts and lowcut dresses? a couple of curses sprinkled here and there... some other nivel peh.. ?
i honestly do not think there is anything on tv that is appropriate that an adult would enjoy watching (even the news is filled with stories of rape, footage of things that you probably shouldnt look at, commercials that are completely innapropriate....)
and one last thing-
why are you so into the labels? i think it is horrible...
nowhere in the torah does it say that moshe was yeshivish or MO or whatever.... either you are shomer torah umitzvos or not. either torah is your main focus in life or it isnt.
why do we need to label every person>
Again, I was just using TV as an example, but if someone wants to claim that there’s very little that’s appropriate on TV, they won’t get much of an argument out of me.
While I think it’s very noble to proclaim that labels are unnecessary and “either you are shomer torah umitzvos or not. Either torah is your main focus in life or it isn’t”, I’m not so sure it’s a practical way to go about things anymore. Would you say that it’s possible to have Torah as the main focus in your life as either a “Yeshivish” or an “MO”? If not, maybe I’m just defining things the wrong way.
I’m not sure about this yet, but I think that the reason that there were no “labels” 30 years ago is partly due to the fact that there were many fewer Kollel Yungeleit around – meaning one less major decision that had to be made by returning Seminary girls. The fact that Kollel is a much more realistic option (that’s another discussion actually) nowadays means that there is more need for definition, not less.
WHAT? so you can only learn in kollel if youre yeshivish? or if you learn in kollel, that means you must be yeshivish? is that the new definition? so the only difference/major difference bw MO and yeshivish is that one goes to kollel and one doesnt??
uhmm.. i disagree.
No, you're right. I didn't mean to put it that way. Yeshivish and Kollel are most definitely NOT bound together. You can definitely have one with out the other. I need to lay out my position more clearly. I still think that today's definition of Yeshivish was not prevalent 30 years ago. Not to say it didn't exist, but it was rare.
BTW, I would love if you could just pick a pseudonym for yourself, assumin I'm having this conversation with one person.
that could partly be bc 30 years ago we didnt have a lot of shtick and other things that we have today.. times are changing.. 30 years ago, no one would have described themselves as "modern orthodox" either, i assume..
and yes, this whole convo HAS been with one person...
Post a Comment
<< Home